
This is the original English version of the interview with Danielle De Picciotto and Alexander Hacke for Bant Magazine’s March-April 2009 issue
Before performing their medium blending one of a kind project Ship Of Fools in Istanbul as the guests of Bant Presents: City Star Nights by Converse series, we asked Berlin based Alexander Hacke and Danielle De Picciotto a few questions…
Interview by Ekin Sanaç
Danielle De Picciotto answers:
When and how did you discover the novel by Sebastian Brant, which named and inspired The Ship Of Fools project?
I discovered the Book “The Ship Of Fools” when I was on tour in 2004 and visiting London. I had bought the book “Madness and Civilisation” by Michel Foucault which is a great book about the history of madness and describes how its perception has changed through the centuries. Foucault kept on mentioning “The Ship Of Fools” a book by Sebastian Brant and so I bought it later on and was fascinated immediately – it was so contemporary even though it was written in 1456. It was the first bestseller in europe!
In which aspects do you find the text written six centuries ago by Brant timeless and still valid? Don’t you find this depressing too in some way?
Brants book describes 112 fools –character traits of people - and many of them remind me of people I know today - including myself. Lust, greed, laziness, foolhardiness and intolerance can still be seen everywhere . The fact that people have changed so little in their emotions inspite of technology developing so quickly is strange. It made me wonder why we are still so addicted to and fascinated by our vices and decided to delve into the book to understand the subject matter a little better.
Have you made any trips during the production period or was the whole “Ship Of Fools” project produced in Canada?
Alexander Hacke and I worked on preparing the show in Canada, USA, Greece, Venice, Berlin and Italy. We were lucky to be touring a lot during the time and had the possibility of recording a lot of visual and accoustic material in different cultures – making it possible to give an international aspect to the fools. Then we spent two months in Canada on a residency and finished composing the whole show – writing the music, editing the film and drawing the pictures.It was very nice to be able to work in a different country for such a long time –it helps the concentration to be in another city and it gives the whole project a special atmosphere to work in a different place than at home.
Who are the dancers you have filmed for the hypnotic “Of Dancing” part?
The dancers I filmed are women from very different cultures – one is japanese, one is american and one is portugese. I did not tell them to dance a certain choreography but asked them to express their personal feelings to the music Alexander had written. It is interesting that the japanese dancer danced a turkish belly dance, the portugese dancer decided to wear a veil and the american dancer used classic dance steps – showing that emotions do not depend on the culture one comes from but can be expressed very differently than expected. I like breaking boundries and I thought this was a beautiful way of doing it.
The lyrics you have written for the songs in a way personalizes the whole story in a very effective way. What has been your approach in adding content and text to the original piece in order to adapt it to today, as it sounds amazingly fresh?
While working on the themes I always tried to look at them universally and personally at the same time. This is not easy. With the song “Hey God” which belongs to the theme “Who judges Others” I immediately thought of war. War comes about by people that think they can judge others –even kill them if they are not doing what they consider right – a crazy concept in my eyes. But it usually comes about because of great pain – if one is hurt long enough pain becomes so great that one decides to put an end to it and kill the other. The problem is that by killing the pain does not disappear –instead it just moves on to the next person causing just as much pain who then in return wants to cause pain – and in this way it manifests itself even more. I have experienced moments of great pain in which I dreamt of killing God – that is what the song is about.
While performing the Ship Of Fools, what is your favorite part of the whole performance?
When we chose the chapters from the book we chose our favorite fools so I like all of the chapters – depending on my mood or the city we are performing in they are always different – also if we have guest musicians participating many unexpected things can happen so I never know which part will be my favorite until the show is over. One that is always a lot of fun is “Sloth” the lazy fool.
One of the peaks of the performance is the “Of Sensual Pleasure” part. You have filmed a burlesque dancer for that part, who is way far from being confused or ashamed which feels strongly intended. If someone else had the same theme, they could have filmed a woman who looks like a victim and who is disadvantaged (we get this theme a lot in Turkish art). Actually women figures are constantly present in your paintings and drawings, and you like to present them as riots and strong characters rather than injured or confused, which is very impressive. Can you talk about the women figures in your work and how they exist?
Women have been a theme in my art for a long time.The first solo exhibition I did years ago was based on the theme “My heroines from the past,present and future” –I decided to do that after I realized how little I knew about female artists in general. Up to today the art world is male dominated and it is still more difficult to become successful as a female artist than as a man. I think one of the reasons is because women are still used to standing back – they still accept being second place –even though there is no reason they should.
I have worked together with a lot of femal artists since then and I noticed that the ones that stay persistent and proud no matter what happens , no matter how difficult it is – those are the ones that inspire me and that make a difference in the world.
Having depth because of hardships but not going under is for me the most fascinating
characteristic and one I always try to achieve.
With your drawings and paintings, what materials do you find to work best with, in order to present your artistic vision feeding from madness, darkness and showiness?
I enjoy working with pen most – I like the exact perfection one can achieve with pure black and white – but I also love colors –their warmth and brilliance. The content is not dependant on the technique – sometimes I express madness better with very soft colors and sadness with a very harsch black –and sometimes the other way around …
Thats what I love about art –no rules.
I guess you are currently directing a new short movie at the moment. Can you tell a bit about the project? What is the movie about?
I have been asked to do a short art movie by the German Foreign Ministry.They will be celebrating 20 years since the fall of the Berlin wall and asked me to direct of movie that expresses the interaction amongst EU countries since then – especially amongst the youth. İ will be working together with many dancers, animation artists,musicans and spoken word performers to portray how colorful and inspiring interaction amongst cultures can be.
What other actuality is in your agenda at the moment?
At the moment I am finsihed a book about my twenty years in Berlin and how art, music and culture have delevoped there since 1985 and a lot of personal memoires. I am also planning to finally finsh my solo album this year and develope a new multi media show.
Alexander Hacke answers:
I have read that you have finished the Ship Of Fools project in Canada and in about a two months time, which seems like a lot of work in short time! What have been your motivations for creating such a great and whole piece in such a short time? How does being a married couple contribute to that? Can you please tell a bit about the process of producing and creating the project?
We wanted to create something that is a performance featuring audio- and visual components in a truly equal way. One doesn’t work without the other. Also the idea was to provide us with a project wich enables us to showcase our respective talents and abilities and the great variety thereof. That is why we present so many different styles of music and visuals. We love every single one of those genres and techniques and the framework of “The Ship Of Fools” lets us put them all to use.
That we produced the whole show in just 2 month was only possible in a remote yet inspiring location as the “Funny Farm” in Canada, because Berlin or any other thriving city holds too many distractions in order to get anything done effectively. Out there we had the peace plus access to great archives of rare vinyl and a treasure of weird and beautyful objects and materials. So now we have a product that represents our work as individuals but foremost as a unit. We can travel the world and entertain and collaborate with people everywhere together. Nowadays in order to work as an equal couple and to overcome the stereotypes and restrictions we are forced to create our own enviroment and occupation.
What is that instrument/electronic equipment with the screen you are using on stage as The Ship Of Fools? Is it like a sampler where different parts are being recorded and administered? Or is it an instrument where you create the music?
I am using a device called the “Lemur” invented by the French company Jazzmutant. It is merrily a controller to operate computer software. The point about it though is that it’s a multi- touchscreen unit with a flexible layout and structure. This means that I can create various objects like, say balls and connect them to important parameters of a music program, in order to control things like pitch, speed or envelope of a sound. The positon of the objects on the screen refer to those settings and I can move them about with all my 10 fingers at the same time. It is a great way to bring electronic music back into the realm of the physical. Not only for me the performer but also for the audience. It is like playing an instrument again without staring at a laptop and moving a mouse around which basically is the same movement as if I was checking my emails.
The music of The Ship Of Fools project is a perfect whole, which is made up of parts so intensely varying from each other. How do you explain this variation fits to the content of the story?
Humans are driven by very different instincts, emotions, needs, urges and so on. I don’t believe in just one form of creation. The world is made of so many very diverse places and there is more than one ultimate truth. The same applies in my opinion to music. I am totally opposed to any form of “ghettoisation” of genres and particularly in working with the theme of those different fools, I couldn’t think of any just one kind of music which would represent them all.
Have you completed the writing, arranging and recording the songs for The Ship Of Fools in Canada? What was the recording period like?
Danielle and I worked very close together on all aspects of the pieces. Everything corresponds to one another. An idea for a visual concept would trigger a musical development and vice versa. It was pretty intense but ultimately a lot of fun.
While performing the Ship Of Fools, what is your favorite part of the whole performance? Which part to you is the most fun for you on stage?
That is hard to say. As long as everything stays fresh and there is adventure and excitement in every aspect of the performance, I am enjoying all of it equally. And the way things have turned out in the past I am not expecting to touch upon routine and boredom with this project any time soon.
In your Istanbul performance, 2 musicians from Baba Zula will be accompanying you on stage. Do you usually have local musicians participate while touring with the Ship Of Fools project?
We try to involve local artists everywhere we can. This way the show develops further and in different ways where ever we go with it and also, I believe, by linking it to the given culture or language it becomes more apparent to the audience. I hate to be an alien or a pirate in this line of business. I prefer to create an atmosphere with the people instead of for or even against them. This kind of provocation is rather outdated in my point of view and has been overrated from the start.
Besides the guest musicians, do you always have the same set-up and instruments on stage for The Ship Of Fools performance in terms of how you perform the songs live?
Yes, most of the time. We are obviously limited by what airlines will or will not transport at a given budget and with those absurd security regulations these days.
It seems that you have been busy with filmscores lately. Do you find it equally freeing and equally satisfying to write music for a film, as to write music for your own album?
Well, that is commissioned work and especially with movies there is a great deal of marketing involved, meaning it is not only about the music but explaining and thereby “selling” it to the production. Even that can be fun though, kind of practicing the fine art of diplomacy, but mostly I prefer creating music rather than talking about it.
What are you working on currently besides the Ship Of Fools touring schedule?
More filmscores I guess.
Are you planning a solo record in 2009?
I am superstitious about dropping names at this stage, but I’m looking into collaborating with some new acquaintances and old friends in the field of extreme music, you’ll see or rather hear when we get there.
Do you have any actuality after the 2008 tour as Einstürzende Neubauten?
Einstürzende Neubauten? Isn’t that the beast at bottom of the great black abyss, which is not dead but dreaming?
Ship Of Fools is going to be performed in Babylon, İstanbul on the 15th of April.